ObamaCare

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Bill Bryan
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #341 by Bill Bryan » February 12th, 2014, 8:07 am

It's always a great rhetorical dodge to ask a lot of questions and refuse to accept any answers.

mariaporter wrote:If it's so GREAT, why the delays?

If it's so great why do they keep delaying it?

But then if someone points out the reasons they're actually giving for the delay, then just ask:

mariaporter wrote:Foggy, do you really think I believe anything the government says?

Or, to give the short version, "NANA NANA BOO BOO, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!" :earplug:

Hey, only 8 million private sector jobs have been created since ObamaCare was enacted, according to the CBO. I call that a spectacular failure.

True, that's been offset somewhat because the Rethugs have cut a lot of public sector jobs. I blame Obama. If he wasn't a Dem dick tater, the Rethugs wouldn't have to try to damage the American economy, would they?

But yes, if any aspect of the law might really cause some economic disruption, that's the part that should be enforced first, so the small business owners really suffer.

That's the new way to try to sabotage ObamaCare, now that repealing it entirely turned out to be a nonstarter. Enforce it in a way that we hope will really make small businesses suffer!

And let's make them suffer NOW, instead of waiting until right before the 2016 election. That's the spirit!

Let's defeat it in Congress and prevent it from being passed. OK, that didn't work. Let's sue and get the Supreme Court to say it's unconstitutional. OK, that didn't work. Let's vote to repeal it 41 times, and try to obstruct it from being implemented, even if we cause a government shutdown that costs tens of billions of dollars in damage to the economy. OK, that didn't work. Let's enforce every provision in it right now today this very minute, and hope it really hurts small business owners, so that the Rethugs don't lose the House in November and so that we get a Rethug president in '16. OK, that isn't working either.


Oh, wait, I got an idea. Why don't we simply accept that ObamaCare IS THE LAW IN THIS GREAT NATION, and try to improve it so it works even better than it is now?

[tab=30]Image ANYTHING BUT THAT!!
"My presidency is entering the fourth quarter. Interesting stuff happens in the fourth quarter."
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optimusprime
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #342 by optimusprime » February 12th, 2014, 10:33 am

Foggy, GREAT POST!! :-bd

I don't think many people read the CBO report in full. Data was cherry picked (aaaaggainnnn) and added to ad nauseum GOP talking points which were already far, far away from reality and common sense.
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clando
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #343 by clando » February 12th, 2014, 1:32 pm

optimusprime wrote:Foggy, GREAT POST!! :-bd

I don't think many people read the CBO report in full. Data was cherry picked (aaaaggainnnn) and added to ad nauseum GOP talking points which were already far, far away from reality and common sense.
Yeah John Stewart did a pretty funny piece on how they cherry picked the report.

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mariaporter
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #344 by mariaporter » February 12th, 2014, 2:53 pm

I'm just asking questions that need to be asked. And if it IS going to hurt businesses and make it difficult for them to implement, why not just be upfront about it and let it happen instead of delaying it and making it someone else's problem.

I'm not defending the actions of the GOP here - they are just as much to blame for the sorry state of everything as the dems. I don't go by what ANYONE of either party SAYS because it is useless. That has been proved over and over again. I only make judgements based on actions and I don't like what I am seeing. I am already very nervous about this law (as everyone SHOULD be because politicians are 100% incompetent) and their delays only make me more suspicious and nervous.

Will Obamacare work? Maybe! I don't know! I HOPE it does because I want our country to be healthy and successful. I'm just saying these assholes don't exactly have a good track record and I can't trust them.

Sorry, NOT sorry!
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #345 by John Thomas8 » February 12th, 2014, 3:27 pm

Actions? Businesses that have been lying about how the law has effected them are as bad as anything the politicians have said/done.

There's a lack of honesty in corporate and government "leadership" that defies description.

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Bill Bryan
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #346 by Bill Bryan » February 12th, 2014, 3:41 pm

mariaporter wrote:I'm just asking questions that need to be asked.

And refusing to listen to the answers that are given to those questions.

And if it IS going to hurt businesses and make it difficult for them to implement, why not just be upfront about it and let it happen instead of delaying it and making it someone else's problem.

Whose problem are they making it? "Making it someone else's problem" makes no sense at all.

I hope you understand that all the people who work for those companies that aren't offering ACA-compliant insurance now are eligible to get the insurance on the exchanges as individuals today. In fact, that may be part of the reason for delaying the enforcement against the companies - to try to get more people to sign up as individuals.

I'm not defending the actions of the GOP here - they are just as much to blame for the sorry state of everything as the dems. I don't go by what ANYONE of either party SAYS because it is useless. That has been proved over and over again. I only make judgements based on actions and I don't like what I am seeing. I am already very nervous about this law (as everyone SHOULD be because politicians are 100% incompetent) and their delays only make me more suspicious and nervous.

Will Obamacare work? Maybe! I don't know! I HOPE it does because I want our country to be healthy and successful. I'm just saying these assholes don't exactly have a good track record and I can't trust them.

Well, I'm not trying to be harsh, and I do respect your opinions and realize you just have a very different set of principles than a lot of people do.

But here's the thing: I've been enrolling people in ObamaCare for several months now. The people we're enrolling are ALL PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING, but they couldn't afford any health insurance in the past. If they're not working, they don't make the minimum ($11,500) in income you need to qualify for ObamaCare. People who can't work or who don't work would be eligible for Medicaid, but North Carolina didn't do the Medicaid expansion. So we have to tell them, "Sorry, you're fucked." Except what we really say is "I wish I had better news for you."

My point is, 100% of my customers are people who work and have jobs and families, OK? They are the salt of the earth; good, solid American citizens, who work and have jobs that they go to every day. But they didn't make enough to be able to afford health insurance, and their companies didn't offer them affordable health insurance.

Now they have health insurance, and it's very good coverage and it doesn't discriminate against women like health insurance always did in the past, and it's affordable. They're not fucked -- they're fucking THRILLED about the insurance we got them. The more people we sign up, the more customers we get, because our customers spread the word about what we were able to do for them.

And I can tell you for certain, mariaporter, that they don't give a shit about your principles or your adamant declarations that everything the government does is evil and a lie. I suggest that any politician that tries to take away that health insurance is going to pay a price, because these people work and they vote.
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Bill Bryan
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #347 by Bill Bryan » February 16th, 2014, 9:24 am

If you like your new ObamaCare health insurance, you get to keep your new ObamaCare health insurance. :smoking:
"My presidency is entering the fourth quarter. Interesting stuff happens in the fourth quarter."
- President Barack Obama

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mariaporter
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #348 by mariaporter » February 20th, 2014, 6:35 pm

Foggy, I've been working as a freelance writer for a while and recently had to do a 4 article series on the benefits of Obamacare in a purely positive spin.

::pause for laughter::

I'm still skeptical, but it was eye-opening to see the potential positives of the program!
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. Sell not liberty to purchase power." -- Benjamin Franklin

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clando
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #349 by clando » February 20th, 2014, 10:18 pm

mariaporter wrote:Foggy, I've been working as a freelance writer for a while and recently had to do a 4 article series on the benefits of Obamacare in a purely positive spin.

::pause for laughter::

I'm still skeptical, but it was eye-opening to see the potential positives of the program!
Can you post a link to the article series? Would actually like to read it.

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Re: ObamaCare

Post #350 by 7rob7 » February 21st, 2014, 8:26 am

I'd love to read it, too. :D
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mariaporter
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #351 by mariaporter » February 21st, 2014, 11:42 am

Only 2 of the articles have been posted so far:

http://www.wilsonlaw pa.com/the-affordable-care-act-how-it-benefits-you-right-now/

http://www.wilsonlaw pa.com/obamacare-basics-what-you-must-know/

[mod="Foggy"]I broke the links in response to a request by the law firm and a discussion with mariaporter. Take the space out between "wilsonlaw" and "pa" to visit those URLs.[/mod]
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. Sell not liberty to purchase power." -- Benjamin Franklin

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Re: ObamaCare

Post #352 by optimusprime » February 27th, 2014, 4:47 pm

Foggy, you hear from VPOTUS Biden today (02/27/14)?
You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.
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Bill Bryan
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #353 by Bill Bryan » February 27th, 2014, 5:13 pm

No. I missed the call. :lol:
"My presidency is entering the fourth quarter. Interesting stuff happens in the fourth quarter."
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clando
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #354 by clando » February 28th, 2014, 10:01 am

Hmm...so what do the markets think of Obamacare versus repeal:

BloombergBusinessWeek wrote:The Markets Go Mad for Obamacare

A new online broker, Motif Investing, is offering Obamacare’s friends and foes alike a chance to put their money where their mouth is. Co-founded by a former Microsoft (MSFT) executive, Hardeep Walia, and backed by Goldman Sachs (GS) and other investors, Motif allows customers to bet on narrowly tailored concepts.

Two of the hottest motifs right now are Obamacare and repeal Obamacare, Walia says. They represent, respectively, the idea that the law will succeed and that it will fail. The Obamacare motif is made up of hospitals, generic-drug makers, pharmacy-benefit managers, and companies specializing in electronic medical records, all of which stand to gain from the Affordable Care Act’s emphasis on cost control and its guarantee of payment. “Before the law, 30 percent of hospitals’ revenue was unbilled because you could walk into an ER and not pay,” Walia says. “They’re now paid by the U.S. government.” The Obamacare motif is up 46.9 percent in the past year, doubling the performance of the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index (up 22.8 percent).

Repeal Obamacare is composed of companies that would benefit from the law’s demise, mainly medical device manufacturers, which the ACA saddles with a 2.3 percent excise tax; assisted-living and home health-care providers, which will suffer from reduced Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement rates; and medical diagnostics equipment and services providers, which may encounter reduced demand as a result of the law’s efforts to curb unnecessary testing. The repeal Obamacare motif has risen just 13.8 percent in the past year.

What’s most striking isn’t the performance of the two funds, but where investors are choosing to place their money. “We don’t have convictions or views on the law itself,” says Walia. “We give you both sides of the equation.” But one is clearly more popular: He says Motif investors have bet 45 times more money on Obamacare’s success than on its failure.

This trend reflects the beliefs of the investment community, where—unlike in Washington—the permanence of the health-care law is taken for granted and the prospect of repeal is given practically no credence. “Investors can’t imagine a scenario where the changes the Affordable Care Act started will be repealed and taken away,” says Bob Kocher, a partner specializing in health care and IT at the venture capital firm Venrock.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-20/obamacare-investors-bet-billions-the-aca-will-succeed

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clando
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #355 by clando » February 28th, 2014, 11:12 am

Here is a good Fact Checker article about an anti-Obamacare AFP add from Tennessee. The article does a very good job of comparing and explaining one of the "cancelled" plans that people weren't able to keep. Just because someone had a cheaper plan previously doesn't mean it was a "good plan".

The Fact Checker wrote:The missing context in yet another AFP ad featuring yet another Obamacare victim

Lamb’s old plan was provided through a public-private program aimed at lower-income workers called CoverTN, which split the premium costs between an employee, the employer and the state. That’s a big reason why Lamb’s premium was only $52 a month, but in an interview she said she would have gladly paid and could have afforded the full $156 a month.

Why was the plan so inexpensive? For one thing, it had a $25,000 cap on annual benefits. It also had no limit on out-of-pocket costs, and it would only cover generic medications.

CoverTN was terminated at the end of the 2013 because it did not meet key requirements of the ACA, in particular a ban on such caps on benefits. The Obama administration denied the state’s request for a waiver, and so the plan was shut down.

For health-care reformers, such annual caps on benefits were a sign of a substandard plan that could put someone in bankruptcy if they had an accident that resulted in unexpected medical costs. But Lamb doesn’t look at it that way because she already had suffered a major and costly accident that was unrelated to her chronic condition.

In 2007, Lamb fell off a horse, requiring seven surgeries at Vanderbilt Medical Center. She saw one surgical bill for $125,000, but after negotiations with CoverTN, the hospital agreed to reduce the charges to below $25,000. In the end she barely paid anything in hospital costs after her accident.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/02/28/the-missing-context-in-yet-another-afp-ad-featuring-yet-another-obamacare-victim/?hpid=z4
I'm not sure how a plan with a $25,000 cap on benefits and an un-limited out-of-pocket costs could be considered a "good plan". Yes it was cheap, but that's because it barely covers anything. The Vanderbilt Medical Center had to write off $100,000 in care. She even stated: “Really after that, I was not worried about something catastrophic” that would exceed the $25,000 cap, she said. She mistakes her good fortune that VMC would write off her care as some how a right.

Here is politifact's analysis of the ad and her previous plan...

PF wrote:In exchange for the low costs, policyholders received relatively few benefits. There was a $25,000 cap on annual benefits, and coverage was pretty basic. For example, policyholders could make 12 primary care visits per year and five or six specialist visits. Only generic drugs were covered and individuals were limited to two emergency room visits per year and hospital stays were capped at $10,000-$15,000 a year.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/feb/13/does-americans-prosperity-ad-about-woman-lupus-tel/
I don't understand how anyone could see this a "good" policy.

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Bill Bryan
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #356 by Bill Bryan » February 28th, 2014, 12:58 pm

clando wrote:Hmm...so what do the markets think of Obamacare versus repeal:

BloombergBusinessWeek wrote:The Markets Go Mad for Obamacare

Oh I am SO stealing that whole post for Frogbrow's benefit. Lemme do that, then I'll read your next one. This is something we'd all benefit from reading.
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Bill Bryan
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #357 by Bill Bryan » February 28th, 2014, 1:02 pm

Stole the second one, too.

Well hell, I gave you credit at least!
"My presidency is entering the fourth quarter. Interesting stuff happens in the fourth quarter."
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clando
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #358 by clando » February 28th, 2014, 2:22 pm

You don't have to tell me you are posting them at Fogbow, though I appreciate the acknowledgement. I didn't write the articles so there is no requirement to source me. You are free to cross post anything I put here at Fogbow. I post these articles for people can be more informed, the more people they are shared with the better.

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clando
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #359 by clando » February 28th, 2014, 4:03 pm


Very professionally done! What sources did you use for the information? Just wondering, not questioning anything.

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mariaporter
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Re: ObamaCare

Post #360 by mariaporter » March 1st, 2014, 10:34 am

Actually, the majority of the info came from HealthCare.gov!
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. Sell not liberty to purchase power." -- Benjamin Franklin


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